I was talking with a friend from DS earlier, specifically about the 'new' co-op system and how it's very limiting, and thought it might be worth setting up an online petition. I've seen a lot of dissatisfaction on other gaming forums regarding this, too, so I was thinking of sending it to from with a cover letter. I don't want to jump the gun just yet, because they may implement something which makes it easier or at least workable, but at this point it' looking pretty bleak. Even if they do nothing about this, at least it will show the disappointment across what seems to be much of the community (even people who don't PvP).

It's disappointing to read family members buying two versions of the game, with the understanding the co-op would be available to them, only to sit there for hours without any success. The result? Returning one of the games because it's now redundant. Maybe people were a bit naive in thinking it would be a 'global' game, where you could summon anyone at any time, but in my opinion it's also a massive step back to introduce a matchmaking system which seems to currently operate on a very arbitrary basis - very few people are coming forward to say they've successfully summoned a single person they know, even when they are extremely close to eachother. In fact, very few people are seeing phantoms and invasions full stop.

It's one thing to have a singular vision for your game, but it's quite another to limit the gaming experience to purely anonymous, arbitrary meetings. That's an interesting part of the game but it severely limits the longevity of Dark Souls, imo, because after you've completed the first play through, that's when the PvP and full co-op comes in to its own. Do From not have any sort of research and development team? You only have to have a look at youtube to see the amount of PvP videos posted. Whether they wish to aknowledge this or not; organised PvP was the lifesblood of DS and kept the game going far beyond it's single player mode, and in turn kept the franchise alive. It may sound a little over the top, but the current set up is a slap in the face for these people, the people who squeezed every last possibility from DS in terms of what each build can do.

I remember people suggesting PvP arenas for dark souls, mentioning it in the Namco feedback thread etc. It's gone from wanting more to getting almost 100% less. It would be different if these aspects of the game would in any way water down the single player experience, but they don't.

TLDR: if people think this is a good idea, let me know. I'll edit this inital post with a form.

I think this is a step in the right direction and I'm with you. However, I'm not sure this sentence says what you wanted it to say:

I'm definitely for it. Unless there's some sort of update/announcement soon!

@Chill: It was more to hilight the seeming lack of players people are grouped with, meaning a lack of co-op and invasions. Probably not worded great, but it won't be what I send anyway.

I think this petition is the right step to take due to the current state of co-op mode, and PvP. I completely agree with the original post.

I am very saddened by these p2p servers, and how it limits people (EU & NA) from playing with their friends. The game itself is an awesome experience; however, co-op and PvP are what made Demons Souls disc stay in peoples' consoles for so long.

I understand they wanted to make Dark Souls more challenging than Demons Souls, but making everybody unable to connect with their friends is not the right way to make it more "challenging". They made it almost unplayable for friends and community to gather and have fun. This is a step backwards from Demons Souls and next gen games in general.

I hope that the developers are working on this issue to satisfy their long time supporters and new customers alike.

I also hope this petition gets pushed towards the developers' attention and on the top of their "to-do list", if I may be so bold.

Yea I really can't express my dissapointment over the new multiplayer "System". It's one of two things: either a horrible "system" or just simply broken.

See my thread here: http://www.preparetodie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2814

I 100% agree with everything posted here; if the system is going to remain in the current state there needs to be an invitation system. Otherwise it needs to get fixed AT LEAST.

I havn't heard one happy person regarding the changes....more people need to post about this and pray FROM does the right thing here. I'm tired of the excuse its going to ruin immersion etc. Let's drop the pretentiousness act and at least admit that the multiplayer isn't even functioning as intended. Unless they wanted to make it EVEN MORE LIMITED than that of Demon's Souls. Why not let the person playing your game who paid $60 on release date decide how they want to play it. Either that or just make it F*$&ing single player.

So about 20 hours into the game and I have seen 0 summon signs and have been invaded 0 times.

I have seen a total of 3 people at bonfires, and maybe 5-10 at random points while walking about.

Is this normal or should there be more people around? does this have something to do with the covenant of the white ring? If so can I leave said covenant? I am a first time customer of the series and the online "co-op" so far is non existent otherwise the game is great.


It seems in a few areas however like summoning someone would really help me out

I know what you meant to say, I'm just making sure you say it in a way that everyone is clear on what you're saying

I am among those people who you mention.

@Sandfight: It isn't normal, no. Neither is it acceptable, especially when From went at lengths to stress how the MP for dark souls would be more in depth and be more prominent. I feel bad for you, because when it works, the MP experience is superb...at least it was for demon's souls.

There are a couple things you should know, that I didn't understand until NG+ of Demon's Souls:

You are only ever eligible as a host of other players when you are in Human Form.

When you are human you will be able to see soul signs of people (provided they're in your lobby) who are close to you in level.

You can only be summoned to/invade another person's world as a Hollow (when you're undead.)

Also, you can't summon people to a part of the game you have already conquered. So if you've already beaten a boss in an area, and you're in Human form, you won't see soul signs there.

Try going onto an area where the demon is still chillin'.

That said, the Lobby system they've implemented has GREATLY limited multiplayer activity, so I wouldn't be surprised if even following these guidelines, you saw little to no multiplayer. :-\ Hence the thread.

Yea. I know all the limitations and guidelines you have to follow being a veteran of demon's souls. Great informative post however the system is still simply broken.

I think the biggest problem with MP is that at least early on, it's horribly difficult to acquire the humanity items you need to become human and hence summon other phantoms. I've already lost both humanity points provided freely at the beginning of the game; I got to summon one player while alive, and got us both killed, then lost that bloodstain. I've also killed the lone sewer rat about twenty times... No humanity drop.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but there are ways to make sure you have a decent amount of humanity. There are at least a few lying around in secret little nooks to begin with, early on in the Undead Whatever-area.

You can take a starting gift item which also provides 2 humanity charges when used.

Defeating bosses will award it, as will certain random tough enemies. As you pointed out, rats do too. There is a room with 3 rats not much after the first boss where I've picked up a couple.

The most important thing is only to use them when the time is right so to speak.. And once you're human take your time and be careful. If you have someone with you, let them take the risks and you provide support.

IF they die you can always run back to where you summoned them from, and chances are they will have their sign down again.

I was going to type one out too, didn't realize that someone was already on it. I don't know if it will do much good, but its a step in the right direction.

I wouldn't even be opposed to pay a small monthly fee to maintain dedicated servers....

By the way, the 'official' dark souls forum has locked my thread, which is identical to this. No reason, no note, or message to tell me why...

Here's me thinking forums were for expressing your opinions and discussing things like adults...

Yea I'm absolutely all for this. They had it fine in demons souls. There is absolutely no need to have a global server all it's doing is creating problems and in the long run is going to hurt the sales of the game. If they don't release a patch to somehow make things better then I don't know how long I will play this game for....... I can deal with no tournaments but I can't deal with a non existent multiplayer. I can't even play with randoms right now..... I didn't pay 66 $ for this.

This is a very serious concern. I agree with this thread in its entirety. As my friend and I both played Demons into NG++++++, together, we are both very dissatisfied with the current co-op incarnation. They wanted to make the game more difficult, I understand, but as you are able to summon people to help anyways, I wonder why does it matter who that person is, i.e. why is it less difficult with my friend than with someone else. FTR even playing through Demons almost completely in co-op with my friend, I'm almost sure we set a record for both dying and fun. I hope From takes this issue seriously and will help those of us that bought Dark to play together.

i am amazed that few have even posted here.

i find the lack of multiplayer to erk me more and more as i read countless post of people in disbelieve of the lack of multiplayer.i am up for signing the petition,although im sure it will go unseen by from.I almost feel cheated in a sense as i can't invite or even pvp with my friend that i used to on deamon souls.The over all game is amazing i must say,but the lack of multiplayer with friend or even to pvp is retarded. the multiplayer went backwards from deamon souls i thought they were going to make it better....
its like instead of getting a hot new stripper you get a granny with a new boob job.
I really hope that they do some tweaks and allow people to invite friends even if it is to just pvp but i highly doubt that will happen.

I completely agree with this thread. Myself and two of my friends all preordered Dark Souls because we loved Demon's Souls coop play. We played for more than 12 hours yesterday and were NEVER able to summon one another. I tried to summon at least five random white phantoms and all attempts to summon failed. I agree, that this could be a game breaking online "system". The multiplayer is part of what makes these games. 12 hours....a good portion of it human....and sadly, I've not been invaded once. Neither were either of my companions. I never had these problems in the 300+ hours I have into Demon's Souls. FROM Needs to fix this Asap.

Good idea. Its not even stable with connection. It kicks me out every 1 or 2 hours. Other games work perfect on my ps3 because my connection is one of the fastest. Why are their servers so weak?

When I first started playing Demons Souls, I had a lot of problems, but as time pasted I loved all of those things. The online system it had was easier to understand and work with. They have taken all of that and stomped it into the mud with Dark Souls. The only got the game to play with others online, and the online system is really breaking it for me. I have half a mind to return the game because this is just ruining it for me. I put in some 200 hours into playing Demons Souls, and once I finished everything there was to in the game, I started over from scratch. That's how much I enjoyed the online system, and I have put around 20 hours in, in Dark Souls, and want to smash the game. This may sound harsh, but I only got the game because I liked Dark Souls online system. In my mind, that's like buying a ferrari, and being given a tricycle. I would love to spend another 200 or more hours on Dark Souls, but I won't with out a better online system.

I'm on board with everyone here. The biggest reason I kept playing Demon's Souls up until the day of Dark Souls' release and why the three of us preordered is because I was able to play with friends and roommates and experience the insane difficulty together. 12 hours into the game, we've not been able to summon each other at all, I've been in human form through most of it without a single invasion(and all of my invasion attempts failed as well).

At this point, I'm just kind of wondering if I should just finish my playthrough and sell the game to push the cash towards Skyrim. We love the game, we love the experience. But the inability to do so together kind of makes having three copies in the house pointless.

I agree with this thread as well. I will never play past 1-2 playthroughs if I won't be able to play with friends.

yah, do it, I think most people playing the game want to help their friends....or kill them....

Co-op for Dark Souls is a huge let down and everyone agrees, the game has only been out for a day (in NA) and I'm sure Namco and FROM know about the problems now and understand why DS was so popular..now we just need to wait and see what they do..If they ignoe the thousands of comments on their own website then I'm returning the game..sorry (Imma beat is first duh) theres just no replay value after the first game..I wanted to have good co-op with friends and PvP just like everysingle other person who played Demon's souls so why!?

I spent the better part of two hours trying to invade...nothing.......... been invaded once by a complete scrub.... I have been in HUMAN form for 90% of the game and have summoned one person (who was also a complete scrub) I will sign anything that is passed along to From.

First "official" response on Namco Bandai's website

Due to several contacts we've received from users confused as to how the summoning feature works in game, we have provided this list to help.

Conditions for summoning (White Sign Soapstone):

The host (person who's game world will be used) must be human. The client (person joining the game) can either be human or undead.


The client’s level must fall within 10% (above or below) of the host’s level. Generally, this example formula should give you a good idea on whether you will be able to join: (LC x 1.1) ≥ LH ≥ (LC x 0.9), where is LC the level of the client and LH is the level of the host. For example, if the level of the host is 20, then they will only be able to summon players who are levels 18 to 22.


The area boss (Taurus Demon, Bell Gargoyles, Moonlight Butterfly, etc…) in the host’s world must still be alive. A client can still be summoned even if the client has already defeated their own area boss.


The host must not have placed down a summoning sign. Summoning signs from other players will not appear in a host’s world if the host also has placed a summoning sign down. This is to prevent a network conflict of the host joining someone else's game world while the clients are trying to join the host's game world.


After successfully summoning, the client will return to their world if the area boss is defeated, the client is killed or the host is killed.
Also, please note that there are several different servers/lobbies that are being used for Dark Souls, so you may not be able to summon a specific friend into your game even if you adhere to the steps above. We can only recommend that you follow the steps above for the best chance at being able to join a specific friends' game.


Thoughts?

^ Let me sum that up for you:

"We fucked up so hard, so we are going to play this off that everyone is retarded and can't figure out the summoning system. Hopefully if we ignore this long enough the problem will go away."

^^^ Sounds like they aren't going to do anything about this problem, many of us face.

I really wish they would just look into this problem instead of throwing the instruction booklet directions at us.

Ok, so how can we change our lobbies? What are the requirements for changing the lobbies or changing servers? How do we know exactly which server we're on?

^ The servers are ping restricted. You are placed in a server depending on your location. P2P systems minimize lag....kinda....but also SEVERLY restrict online interactions....

Just because Japan is a small country, and all their players are in the same vicinity, P2P servers works great for them.

USA, Canada and Europe are much larger countries (& continent) and P2P severely limits our game play experiences and online interactions. Please, find a different server method, or patch or something!!

I'm upset.

This is 100% BS. I bought it in hopes of playing with my friends...This needs to change or this game is going back.

The reason Demon's Souls was so huge was because people kept coming back to it.

Sign me in.

That's all they have to say about it? We're not asking how it works, we're saying it sucks and we want it fixed. Am I alone? Does knowing how this horrible system works make it any less horrible? I don't think so.

Ps: I've forwarded this thread to the namcobandai support section, so at least they know about it. Thanks.